Shalloween

We Malaysians are celebration junkies. Deeparaya, Gong Xi Raya, Christmas Raya, you name it. We can't have enough of it! Notably, we Malaysian Muslims are not short of celebrations.

We celebrate festivities that commemorate an end of an important event. This celebration is commonly known as Kenduri Kesyukuran. After finishing projects, semesters or a duration of hard work, it is acceptable that we celebrate by socializing, reminiscing funny stuff that happened during the project, preparing food (like barbecue) and feasting together.

Muslims celebrate Muslim holidays like AidilFitri and AidilAdha. AidilFitri is to celebrate Muslims' success all around the globe for finishing Ramadhan, the fasting month. AidilAdha is for us to remember the story of Prophet Ibrahim and Propet Ismail and to re-enact the sense of sacrifice by slaughtering cows and goats to be distributed among family, friends and those who are unfortunate.

Makan-makan. Makan-makan commands no extra definition. We can have any reason to cook for 20 people and invite them to our house to enjoy a feast. It can be that Cik Senah accidentally bought 20 grilled chickens from the pasar malam or Pak Badul accidentally ordered 20 pizzas from Pizza Hut. And what better way to respond to accidents than making it a memorable get-together for friends and family.

Oh yeah, my personal favourite: birthdays! Although as we get older, birthdays becomes more and more boring and presents diminishes by the year but birthdays are the only time we feel special and cherished. But these days, I don't look forward to birthdays anymore because I hardly get any presents. I know, it's the wish that matters but can you blame me for thinking that the most important aspect of birthdays are the presents?

Beautiful buildings, spectacular views and other marvels in this world can also be celebrated to show our appreciation to the creator of all things. A simple Subhanallah, a few camera clicks or in my case, a full-length video caption of details are fitting ways to celebrate. Even a good morning shower can be celebrated with a macarena dance routine.
Ehhhhh Macarena, Aieeegh!

With so many kinds of celebration permissable by Islam, I think it is rather weird that we celebrate festivities that has no historical connection or even a simple sense of personal solace.

Take Halloween. Many of my friends are heads over heels to attend TGIF Halloween party, pardon, my muslim friends. Should Malaysians celebrate Halloween? Should muslims celebrate Halloween?

As Hafidz wrote, we CAN if we want to. And is it a harvest festival? No, not in here it's not. We have harvest festivals around May and June for Sabah and Sarawak. In Sabah, we call it Pesta Ka'amatan and in Sarawak, Gawai Dayak. In October, the whole country will experience heavy rain and this is when the soils are rejuvenated for next year's farming.

Well Izzati, we live in an era where people can think it's okay with this and that based on their personal beliefs and their status as muslims. But let me ask you something, will you let a person with no experience in medicine to perform surgery on your mother? Or will you trust a person who has no prior mechanical training to fix your car? Why is Islam any different? What you think matters but what you feel how Islam respond to certain situation is not.

Halloween holiday is certainly Pagan in origin; some might even venture to call it satanic in nature. Halloween originated as the Druid feast of Samhain, the Celtic god of the dead. On this day the dead were supposed to come back to the earth for the night. To prevent evil spirits from lingering on the earth too long, the spirits were offered a meal to appease them. On this night people also lit large bonfires to scare the spirits and they also disguised themselves so that individual spirits would not recognize them and do them harm for differences they may have had in their past life. This is where the present day tradition of trick-or-treating originated. -IICA.org. (Islamic Information Centre of America's website)
I checked wikipedia and I found that it is also an autumn harvest festival. Malaysia? Autumn?

So why conform our way of life by celebrating something that is inherently foreign and even conflicts with our Islamic beliefs? I do not condemn westernization or what some of us rather call globalization but celebrating Halloween which falls 2 days after the end of Syawal is just so out of place. Is this how we mourn the end of Syawal?

There are certain western cultures that we can adapt and pagan ritual celebrations is not one of them. With Malaysia's abundance of holidays and celebrations, I don't see why we should celebrate Halloween unless there are pagans and Celtics in Malaysia. Maybe then we can go to their homes and indulge a bit in their culture. But that's obviously not the case. (Read the previous sentence twice for better understanding) Sure we can wish people who celebrate it but seriously guys, you and I know that there aren't enough pagans here to fix a lightbulb

So here I am, dumbfounded by how some people would justify Halloween in Malaysia with an oriental sigh "Aiya..." .

63 comments:

wynn said...

..... but to dress up ugly & collecting candies from house to house sounds really fun ^_^"

aiyo!

Afiq Deen said...

fun but the fundamental purpose of it all is you know lah... unIslamic. Dress up in nice raya clothes and ask for money is funner!

Tak boleh la avoid babi je, tapi benda lain yg tak elok tak nk avoid. Life is a test, a struggle.

Betul tak?

RITZ CHEWAN said...

1. Orang memang suka parti... PARTAY!!!

2. Kalau tak boleh dengan satu cara berilah alternative cara lain...

3. Kalau party baca yasin saya suka sampai lambat sikit so tinggal nak makan jerk...

syima said...

I strongly believe (mcm essay EAP), that we should not and cannot celebrate halloween.

if just to have fun (the niat) is our justification, then there are a lot of other fun things we can do considering our niat to have fun. and u are right about life is a struggle.

and having niat alone does not justify the acts.

sama macam the means dont justify the goal. (redundant aku ni)

the essence of halloween celebration and its background are to be taken into consideration seriously.

same macam valentine's day. "i syg dia lah tht's why i celebrate valentine, my love is pure" can that be the justification?

betul ke?

farahrozhan said...

I think the key point to this discussion is that, besides the fact that people don't usually put much thought into their actions; being carefree, adaptable and fun is always so 'cool' kan. People now do things just for the sole sake of blending in, going through the motions, following the crowd like a dead fish swept by water current.

I don't understand why muslims celebrate velentines day, for one thing. But you know, everyone has this innate fear of being ostracized - so I wager, that pretty much explains it all.


But that's just me.

Aqmal said...

Most of the stuff we celebrate have deep roots to Western cultures. Some even date back to ancient times, you know, like zaman jahiliah.

Most rituals comprises of 2 parts. The first would be physical action. This is could be a type of dance, singing a hymn, solat, dressing up in a mask and going around visiting people's houses. It compliments the 2nd part of the ritual, which is intent. Intent and action combined makes a ritual more spiritually wholesome. You can't do one of the two and expect to have some kind of spiritual epiphany. It's like if someone has 'niat' but does not do the solat. Or if someone does the 'solat' but has no 'niat'. This makes your act of worship not 'khusyuk'.

Most people just do the 'action' bit because it's fun but it does not tie them to any religious or cultural group from which the act originated.

Birthday cakes with candles is actually a Western tradition. 18th century Germany to be exact. And celebrating birthdays or any other events with cakes is an Ancient Roman tradition. Now I'm sure you've celebrated birthdays with cakes before, so does that make you German? Does it make you a Roman? Does that mean you worship Venus and bring pastry goods to the temple and pray to her? 'Action' without 'intent'.

Birthday cakes are just the icing, excuse the pun. There are other rituals that typical Malaysians celebrate for fun without knowing its origin. From tatooings to body piercings. The Christmas Trees to the Easter Bunny (pagan rituals). Even duit raya is a borrowed ritual from our Chinese bretherens during Chinese New Year (remember Gongxi Raya?) Even kenduri kesyukuran is an ancient tradition of Malaysian during pre-islamic periods.

Come on lah. Be open-minded a tad bit. If we limit ourselves to fun activities that are Islamic, well we really don't have that much options. My idea of a fun evening is not Quran reading.

Afiq Deen said...

Celebrating birthdays is a bid'ah, which basically means tak berdosa, tak dapat pahala. More or less like makruh.

I'm sorry Aqmal, I personally feel that justifying sins is a sin itself. And if you think that if we limit ourselves to fun activities we dont have much options, well I guess why bother practicing Islam in the first place right?

I didn't know about how wrong Halloween is until a Prof in UIA point it out and as a muslim, I feel oblidged to learn, absorb and somehow spread the word.

If the national Fatwa haramkan Yoga, will you condemn that decision because you feel that by doing so, Islam is limiting methods of keeping fit?

I implore you to reflect, as I have to do considerable amount of reflection myself as long as I'm breathing. Like you said, keep an open mind and think why Islam forbids such festivity? If you can I applaude you. But if you can't, you are still oblidged to obey it for Allah knows what's best.

I sounded a tad preachy didn't I?

It's a heavy burdon to know something that we've been doing for years is a sin but it is not considered a sin until we are aware of it.

Keep an open mind? I celebrated Halloween before and now that I know and learned that it's wrong, I kinda understood the issue from two perspectives. How am I less open minded than you?

Heh. That's a bit shallow innit, assuming that I'm the one who's not open minded, thus the name of the title.

-one- said...

i agree with you aqmal. well said. come to think of it i participate in some way or another
almost all celebration.. even down to giving cards to friends for raya, xmas, deepavali etc..
like every year i also give cards to my friends in london who celebrate halloweeeen. there many reasons why, but for me
mainly its to respect their beliefs, friendship and business. and they all return the gestures whenever its raya, even tho they dont celebrate it. i feel good. k

wynn said...

wow. everyone was so serious.

i never celebrated valentine, what more halloween, and this was my 1st time knowing the actual history of the festival (halloween that is).

tq 4 spreading the info, afiq.

+ teringat waktu kak may wat muvee screening, ber-theme-kan 'halloween'.. kan syima kan? ;)

hanyhany said...

acknowledging is one thing, celebrating is another.

let's just leave the celebration to be done by ppl who really DO celebrate it, no?
we can have candy any other time.

tq for putting up the halloween info, i didnt know half of it.

oh and i personally think that ppl want to celebrate halloween so that they can dress up, take photos and post them up on facebook. So that lots of other ppl will comment and stuff.
Interesting photos make for more traffic at their pages.

we ARE the recording generation.

munira said...

huh? I'm surprised people even consider it.

I don't celebrate halloween. Even when I was not in Malaysia. In US an Canada for example, on halloween, we would be sitting at home doing our own thing. And then those pesky kids would come and ring our bell a gazillion times screaming "trick or treat! TRICK OR TREAT! TRICK OR TREAT!" until they get bored and make up their minds that we are boring no-fun old people and leave. From then on, we just turn off our lights and pretend we're not home.

Although one fun part about these festivities that we don't celebrate (i'e halloween, st peter's day, etc) is the chance to skip school! Because on those days usually they have some special event at school, but then we don't come. Yippeeee!

anpther thing is valentine's day. don't celebrate it. Not only do we have Islamic reasons, but really, it's just a day to celebrate mushiness by spending way too much money on your 'other half'. And the businesses will be laughing all the way to the bank. Joy.

munira said...

oh btw hany, interesting observation on the FB one, that made me LOL.

Afiq Deen said...

we aren't we? Privacy is now a thing of the past.

Let's put it this way lah, during hari raya, will hindus or buddhists celebrate it by praying in the mosque? Or during deepavali, do muslims celebrate by going to temples?

We wish them well and appropriately indulge ourselves in their culture but we don't celebrate their religious festivities.

RITZ CHEWAN said...

Before we go that far, I ask myself:

1. Have I understood my shahadah and understood my ties to God.

2. Have I in my prayers strengthened my ties with God, My fellow Human Beings (not only muslim), and strength within myself (Hablun minallah, minannas and minannafs)

3. Have I in my fast during Ramdhan done what it takes to meet lailatul qadr and out of Ramadhan fasted enough (not spend on myself)to enable me to do charity among mankind.

4. Have I in my Zakat supported the cause of Islam because RM3.50 during Ramadhan is really not enough for the poor of the world.

5. Have I in my hajj real and imagined embraced all mankind muslims and non muslim alike, like we would on the true day of Arafat?

Kawan-kawan, adik-adik let's go back to basics.

If in fact you have covered your bases, I congratulate you.

41:34- Tolaklah kejahatan dengan kebaikan... IOW, bring an alternative that serves THE purpose.

RITZ CHEWAN said...

If Munirah feels that it serves the Islamic cause by alienating herself and her famil from society, who am I to say she is wrong?

munira said...

blergh, ritz. we were not 'alienating ourselves from society'.... it happens only once a year! And do you know how ANNOYING those kids can get?? (fact is, I get annoyed with the kids asking for duit raya, too. I guess knocking on strangers' doors asking for stuff was never my family's culture. but don't worry. we still give these kids duit raya)

If it makes you any happier, we did like to drive around during christmas just to see people's intricate vibrant christmas lights. And we wish our friends thanksgivings. Oh, and we even volunteer at school, my mom was even a volunteer teacher!

Just because we hide on halloween doesn't mean we alienated ourselves from society ;)

munira said...

oh btw.


takyah susah susah nak figure out halloween ni boleh ke takleh

most likely takleh pon.

avoid anything that is unsure (it's permissibility), aren't we all advised so?

lagipun, BANYAK lagi benda yg lebih berfaedah boleh dilakukan. I don't think I even have to list it, you know it yourselves :)

ilovepauldraper said...

Enjoying halloween is permissible. same as how our multicultural society enjoy each other's celebrations. Muslims can go to their friend's Christmas dinner or a Chinese wedding. It's just that because a small minority of muslims believe that it's wrong, they want to impose their restrictions to other muslims with different opinions on the issue. Of course we can do "berfaedah things" instead. but most things that are typically berfaedah are also boring. Hey just because we're muslims, doesn't mean we can't have fun.

Afiq Deen said...

Back to basics?

Don't feel disheartened Munirah, I ignored salesman loads of time and I don't see how that is Islamic. Hahah.

The term Islamic is somehow tied up with muslims as viewed by Aqmal. I guess that's where we differ. I believe that Islam is not just a religion but a way of life and although I may not possess qualities you feel that should fit the title, I am striving to be a good muslim.

I don't care what other people might say about Islam or how Islam prohibits certain fun because in the end, we'll be judged as individuals. There won't be people, beliefs, theories and ideas that can back me up. I don't care what people might think of muslims in general as long as I am tolerant towards others and strive to exude the best qualities of being a muslim.

This way I don't have to pick sides. I am who I am. I don't have to favour non-muslims attitude towards muslims when the general muslim character is assasinated by a few muslims.

And I don't appreciate sarcasm directed to Islam. Muslims, bash em all you want but not Islam. Be reasonable. As muslims, we have the responsibility to uphold Islam at all cost. This is what we were taught to do and this is what I will do. If you feel otherwise, there is a term for that.

Munafiq is a term in Islam used to describe a hypocrite, who while outwardly practicing the forms of Islam, inwardly conceals (perhaps even unknowingly) kufr; considered worse than a kafir.

And yea muslims can have fun. Why the hell not? PS2 is fun. Rollercoasters are fun. What are you saying? Are you saying that dressing up as hantus and collect candies is more fun than scubadiving. I seriously doubt that. Maybe your choice of fun is different than mine then. But come on now, don't use ISLAM to propagate your dissatisfaction of your own ability to have fun.

Aqmal said...

Aren't we being hypocritical. No one here is using islam to propagate anything.

"But come on now, don't use ISLAM to propagate your dissatisfaction of your own ability to have fun."

Who was it that doesn't appreciate sarcasms directed to Islam?

So because i do not practice Islam the way you practice Islam, that makes me a Munafiq, does it? That's funny. But i guess it's fair because it was you who defined Islam and made the definition absolute, right? And no other opinions on the issue is valid because your word is law, right? And if I don't adhere to your definition of Islam, I'm condemned then, right? Because, you know, you'll be the one judging my place in akhirat, right?

If you can call me munafiq, then i can call you an extremist with a God-complex. But let's not start calling names, it'll deviate us from the main topic.

Come on, let's admit it. You are closed-minded. The moment you knew the history of halloween, you dismissed it as wrong and should not be celebrated. like the origins mattered in the first place. it did not even occur to you that maybe people didn't celebrate it because it's Samhain, but because it brings everyone closer together.

But hey, who am I to question your faith. You're a young adult now, you should be allowed to think for yourself what is right and wrong. And you're right, it is not I who will be judging you in the end nor will anyone else. Allah SWT will. And I have confidence that you will not practice anything that you personally feel is wrong because of it's non-islamic origin. There better not be any birthday cakes on any of your birthdays to come. Wouldn't want you becoming a munafiq now.

syima said...

I feel urged to post another comment. I dont see why should we even consider celebrating Halloween. And so eager to defend the permissibility to celebrate it. Look at a greener side of grass, being a Muslim means we have a lot of other days to celebrate with tawadhu' and expressing gratefulness to Allah swt. We have maal hijrah, we have maulidur rasul, u name it other than the usual Eid Fitr and Eid Adha. Then we have those days we celebrate by fasting and at the night we constantly remind ourselves of him like Nifsu Sya'ban and others. Why bother arguing about why Halloween is not wrong to be celebrated? come to think of it, why settled for less when we can actually celebrate for a greater cause?

So when they dress up as ghosts, do they tutup their aurah, fully covered they aurah? and besides going door to door asking for candies, and get together to chat, do they fill the night with the remembrance of Allah? i think by wishing our friends who do celebrate it is more than enough.

yeah, why settle for less kan?

I'm sure this blog post is very very informative and useful, hope everyone can benefit from it..i know i do =)

Diran said...

although i find what you are saying has some sense in it and the whole idealism of islam clahsing wiht paganistic rituals, to me personally i think, its just another celebration. whether it has a meaning or not, i dont care to hoots. frankly, the chinese know muslims celebrate raya becoz its then end of a fasting period. we think they celebrate it because they do it for centuries(or at least i think like that) and indians celebrate it after fighting with a beast(which if you look at it from another point of view seems paganistic to us muslims)-and there many of indians who can fix lightbulbs, probably ur electrician is an indian. and yet there you are afiq, celebrating deepavali with ur indian counterparts. because you know them well enough, you think its safe to celebrate it.what about christianity?isnt that to paganism?hsitory and science shows that christ wasnt born on 25dec, it was the day of some celtic ritual that was incorporated by constatine for his people before he allowed them to be christians and then voila! it becomes some huge celebration. Come on, every festivities has its ayes and nayes. to say one should be celebrated and not the other is a bit judgemental, and based on your blog a little far fetched. but i guess you have a right to give out your point of view.but to me, its another festival that i see fit to be celebrated lively and loudly.

amen

Aqmal said...

Syima:

There are proper celebrations that are Islam-oriented (like the ones Syima mentioned above) which we celebrate. And then there are events from other cultures or religions that can be a shared celebration with the cause of bringing ppl closer together. We do not mix these 2 nor do we incorporate the worship of Allah in celebrations that have nothing to do with Islam to protect the sanctity of our Islamic faith and in the interest of cultural sensitivity. It's not about settling for anything less but rather knowing the difference between both and understanding the different purposes of each celebration. And to say that non-islamic festivities is "less" is culturally incorrect and racist.

Puteri said...

I personally don't really see how religion is a fair ground of comparison because islam, buddhism, and christian are much more comprehensive in matters of faith and conduct.

... whereas Halloween is simply an event celebrating non-faith related things like harvest. So a bunch of people are happy that their crops are growing well - SO?

If you see the situation in Malaysia, the Muslims would invite the Chinese and Indians for open houses during Raya eventhough religiously, Raya celebration has no relation to them. We DON'T see them taking part in fasting month or sembahyang raya, which is something only Muslims do when celebrating. Yet we see them attending these events anyway .. and see how it is a NON issue? It is more of a form of respect and the culture of muhibbah. Why should there be a double standard when it comes to Halloween?

I personally attended a Halloween custome party held by someone who celebrates it as a part of their culture and there really is nothing wrong in joining their celebration. I am no less a Muslim by doing so, ...and if you think I have become less of a Muslim for this act - how?

nab said...

I just do not really twig here as everyone keeps troubling themeselves about this kind of halloween thing which is scarcely *for what I concern* celebrated in Malaysia.

why people love contending about thing less than sure instead of practicing what is clearly stated such as covering our aurat in public or even maybe not bragging our halfly naked body in blog?

It IS good to know and get the clear idea of one matter but amid all these haywire arguments here, are they really help or does it really matter of all?

I am profoundly sorry here Afiq and fellow readers if I'm being a judgmental or some sort of imbecile here who refuses to be a better Muslim but truth be told, we are all His humble sinner as we are not a Maksum.

withal this issue Afiq, I still think you have a nice blog.

RITZ CHEWAN said...

Yups Afiq, back to basics...

After covering all my basics as much as I can I went with a couple of friends to the Curve and had dinner at Laundry (ie food from Itallianies).

Armed with cameras we wanted to take pictures of Malaysians celebrating halloween, or so I thought...

Turns out the only ones in Halloween costumes were the staff (at all food and entertainment) outlets none of the patrons at Laundry, Apartment, Itallianies, Scarlet, Redbox, Empire, O'Brien's, Chillies, Asam Pedas, Starbucks, Secret Recipe's and everywhere else were showing any signs of wearing anything remotely Halloween... Biar Melayu, Cina, India, Mat Salleh atau Africa..

So much for that... ekekekeke!!

So today we ended up joining the Canon Photography Competition at Berjaya Time Square...

RITZ CHEWAN said...

Oh ada satu budak kecik (Melayu) pakai costume Incredibles (Yang ada fake six-pack). But then bapak dia kata dia dah pakai baju tu selama 3 hari dan taknak bukak. So I guess that doesn't count...

Afiq Deen said...

you and your back to basics crap! Haha.

Well we can think for ourselves as we're grown ups now. Like me, we have deviated from the ways of Islam since forever. Majority muslim has deviated in some ways. That is the reason why we are not strong anymore because our souls are embedded with patriotism, nationalism and political idealism that had painted out past. Not to mention behaviors and attitude stemmed by cultures.

We Malaysians, or the english speaking-writing Malaysians are anglophiles, a product of neo-colonialism.

It's not my fault that I grew up in a family of neo-colonialist way of thinking. But it is my responsibility to adhere to whatever I've learned about the way of life of a muslim.

I blogged about this because I want to tell you guys that celebrating Halloween is forbidden in Islam. Kalau taknak ikut tak kisah lah. No matter how we justify this celebration, it is still forbidden.

I don't question my faith and that's that. Sorry for the inconvenience. Tooooot...

Haha

Diran said...

majority muslims have not deviated in no what so ever way....give me examples....because islam neva had an own image...it was a alwiz a new culture, a new literature a new colour of peolple at every moment it is spread. so it has all just been absorbed and practicesed under the discretion and direction of the islam religion.wheter neo-colonism or neo-wtv i truly blv we have become worst.in fact more and more are getting stronger...and the fact more are talking for the religion, shows more passion and "iman" (in your language afiq) for the religion...

Afiq Deen said...

You obviously haven't heard of the Islamic Renaissance founded by the Uthmaniyah Kingdom. Read it up. It'll worth your while.

"shows more passion and "iman" (in your language afiq) for the religion..."

In my language? With all due respect, Fuck You.

This is little something you might call Irony.

In my language.... what nonsense!

Afiq Deen said...

Oh crap, did I just cussed? Shit, I did.

I'm sorry kids, sometimes when an adult is so stupid, he needs to be reminded of his stupidity so he'll reflect, read more books, go to the Penang Bridge and do what's best for him and everyone else affected by his stupidity.

Or.

I can channel my amazement with the F word so he'll think that I gave in to his arguments and will think highly of himself for years to come.

You see, what seems to be vulgar words can actually save lives. I'm actually doing Diran a favour.

Don't get angry. Get even.

Afiq Deen said...

and Diran, Indian hindus are not Pagan (yang dimaksudkan)

Bak kata Alpha Five in M.M.Power Rangers, Aiyayayay!

Aqmal said...

Hey hey, comment boxes are for comments. We need to look at everyone's view. I think cussing is not relevant.

I'm sure diran meant good. Maybe his language skills created a little miscommunication. I myself wasn't sure what his topic sentence was. So no need for talk that belittles others.

SleepingBeauty said...

Is the main argument here really about Halloween? I just think the majority of the people these days enjoy partying. Doesn't matter what the celebration is, its the partying that everyone focuses on.

Is partying unislamic? I would think so.

But then again, a raya open house can be viewed as unislamic as well. When the host does it as a mean of showing off. When the girls arrive in extremely fitting see-through kebaya nyonya with thick make-up and gorgeous hair. When there is too much food served that finally it gets thrown into the trash.

It just depends on how you see things really. But one thing is for sure, when Islam forbids something, it is always with good reasons. You just gotta find out what is it.

Afiq Deen said...

I'm okay with you miscontruing almost all my points and I didn't refute so why should you? And I if I can remember correctly, you belittled my beliefs with sarcasm.

Is sarcasm relevant?

Argue about the issue, not on my methods of blog conduct.

SleepingBeauty said...

Why is it that everytime I say something you get greatly offended? I wasn't being sarcastic. Honest.

I might have misunderstood the whole topic due to speed reading while multitasking, but what I wrote is just my point of views on stuff. And when I say something, it doesn't refer to just you Afiq, it refers to everyone out there.

And how is it that I belittled your beliefs with sarcasm?

Afiq Deen said...

Ehem.

I was referring to Aqmal.

Afiq Deen said...

That's for multitasking and not reading the comments above yours.

Heheh

Aqmal said...

And you belittled mine. But never did I cuss. You told diran to fuck off.

"Argue about the issue, not on my methods of blog conduct."

Ah. So we should all just agree with whatever you've written like a bunch of Muslim zombies? Even though some of the stuff you've written maybe unfounded, without merit, conflicting, contradictory or racist? And that the only views that are valid here are of yours and those who think like you do? And whoever does not agree, will basically be condemned (says you)?
Spoken like a true Islam Extremist.

Afiq Deen said...

Ah please... I specifically told Diran "Fuck You" and not Fuck Off. It was intended as a simple mock but if you feel otherwise... since you feel like you're running the show and everything.

Criticism is how we improve ourselves but there are certain boundaries to criticism and that being our faith in Islam.

Let's discuss about Halloween shall we and not my approach to certain things. I'm known for being blunt and honest, a side of me that you may feel hypocritical but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Don't like how I run my show? Set up your own stage lah.

Aqmal said...

'I specifically told Diran "Fuck You" and not Fuck Off'

Now you're just splitting hairs. A simple mock but a mock nonetheless.

We were in mid discussion of Halloween when you implied i was munafiq. i'll admit, i got a little emotional there and deviated from the topic. Harsh words were exchanged and names were called. I apologize sincerely. It also seems that my sarcasm made for a hostile atmosphere which inadvertently made it look like i own this blog. i do not. i apologize for that too. but i was trying to prove a point using sarcasm.

That said, let's proceed. You presented the idea that Halloween is forbidden to be celebrated by Muslims because of its paganistic origins. You also said it shouldn't be celebrated because only a small minority celebrates the holiday for religious purposes in Malaysia. A number which you feel is too insuffecient to make it an event worthy of shared celebration.

I contended that celebrating Halloween is not forbidden in Islam because if it was celebrated without the intent of worship, it's fine. I said that certain activities that are associated with halloweens (costume parties, trick or treating) can be participated by Muslims regardless of its origins and should only be celebrated for recreational values. I also made a comparison between Halloween and birthday cakes. How birthday cakes during birthdays were originally an ancient Roman ritual and that lighting candles and blowing them out is a German tradition.

The point I was trying to make is that if you can continue celebrating birthdays with birthday cakes, then you can also celebrate Halloween as Westerners do. And that the origin of a celebration is a non-issue when it comes to celebrating it unless you are religiously tied to that particular religion. And one should also think about the benefits of celebrating an event in the issue of racial and cutural understanding.

Afiq Deen said...

I am on the same ground as Sleeping Beauty. When Islam forbids something, it's for a reason (or reasons).

I'm not an expert when it comes to Islam so I base my reason by abiding relevant fatwas by sources that abides by Syafi'e teaching.

Like I commented before, you wouldn't want a doctor with no medical background to operate on your mother. How am I any different? (hypothetically)

SleepingBeauty said...

*blush*

Oh. Oops. I must have been in my perasan mode when I wrote that. I have to keep reminding myself, the world doesn't revolve around just me. haha! I take back my accusations. I'm sorry.

Next time, I'll try not to read a serious topic while checking reports and doing data entry and texting friends. hehe.

Good day! =)

RITZ CHEWAN said...

fuck fuck fuck fuckety fuckety fuck .... :-o

Aqmal said...

Nice.....

"you wouldn't want a doctor with no medical background to operate on your mother."

I do not understand this analogy. Are you trying to say that celebrations that we have no knowledge on its history should not be celebrated?

new reader said...

islam forbids muslim to celebrate any kinds of celebration belongs to other faiths. that's that.

i guess muslims who celebrate hallooween are ppl who love partying hoo haa hoo haa hip hip hooraay.. i wonder if there's costumes of halloween that covers aurat, the the so-call halloween party serves only halal foods and drinks and no peluk2, and such?

new reader said...

there's lot more way to have fun, why hallooween?, which is obviously have its own history and associated with others religion belief?

kalau nak sgt berparty pakaian hantu, why not some poeples could just invent a "get-together" event, and let everyone wears hantu costumes, without coincidentally happen during halloween celebration...then, it's new invented celebration, and we call it "pesta main hantu-hantu"...

Afiq Deen said...

it's the same lah right?

Aqmal, that anology is referring to my inability to discuss the grounds of religion because I'm not an expert. I have personal opinions of human ethics but about islam, i simply cannot base my opinion on the teachings of islam.

Islam is based on two things: revelation and reason. About the things that we can reason with of course lah boleh argue but when something falls under the jurisdiction of Quran, who am I to argue with God's word.

And I don't have enough knowledge to directly translate the Quran so I base my understandings on the teachings of ceritified Ulamas. Ulamas should really join in the blogging trend. : D

Aqmal said...

Well I can't convince you that it isn't haram and you I. All I can say is think about what I said on the birthday cakes. You can even google it up if you want to. I assure you, it is legitimate.

I just don't see the difference. Both of them are of pagan origin yet most Muslims still have birthday cakes for during birthdays. If they can do that and still feel that they are in God's good grace, then i don't see why they can't do the same for Halloween.

new reader said...

Celebrating birthday or bacaan doa selamat panjang umur with some cakes with candle or no candle, together with spagetti and meehoon goreng with some kuehs like karipap, etc, I think that's obviously a personal celebration of makan makan. Tak de bersangkut paut dgn celebration tertentu yg disambut oleh penganut2 agama lain, or celebration yg disambut bersama sama penganut agama lain serentak seluruh dunia on certain date, or whatsoever.

Back to what i said in earlier post, Islam forbits muslim from celebrating other faiths' celebration. Tthat's that.

new reader said...

Aqmal,
Someone celebrates birthday with some cakes of his favourite from secret recipe, why blame the cakes if you want to celebrate halloween?

Aqmal said...

No one's blaming the cakes, NR. The point I'm trying to make is that as much as you want to believe that the tradition of celebrating birthdays with a cake is nothing like celebrating Halloween, it is.

If you look at the essence of both traditions, they are both of pagan/western/non-islamic origin. They are both celebrated since ancient times. They have both evolved to blend well with modernised understandings. (Trick or treating is a tradition added by Americans).

In nowhere does the Quran state that muslims cannot celebrate Haloween nor does it state the same about birthday cakes.


"Back to what i said in earlier post, Islam forbits muslim from celebrating other faiths' celebration. Tthat's that."

If that applies to Halloween, then it applies to birthday cakes as well.

"Celebrating birthday or bacaan doa selamat panjang umur with some cakes with candle or no candle, together with spagetti and meehoon goreng with some kuehs like karipap, etc, I think that's obviously a personal celebration of makan makan."

But a cake is involved in said celebration. Regardless of what the occasion is, eating a cake (traditional Western cake, not kuih muih) during birthdays or any celebration is and always will be a tradition of pagan origin. Even if it is a personal celebration, that does not change its origin.

Can it be omitted during a celebration? Of course. Can it be substituted with something else? Absolutely. Can doing either these two satisfy the requirements of celebrating something within your definition of a non-haram celebration? Logically, yes. So why have birthday cakes at all? Just do what you do but without the cake.

The point is, no matter how much you feel that both traditions cannot be categorized in the same group, they are. They are, in their essential aspects, from the same group. You cannot condemn one without condemning the other. You cannot justify one with justifying the other. As much as you want to. And justification does not change its origin.

zugspitszy said...

new reader:
islam forbids muslim to celebrate any kinds of celebration belongs to other faiths. that's that.

aqmal:
If that applies to Halloween, then it applies to birthday cakes as well.

halloween x dsambut oleh sume org. birtday = hari jadi = meraikan hari die dilahirkan ke dunia.. semua org ade hari tu. so boleh la nak meraikan tanda kesyukuran.. halloween diraikan oleh certain masyarakat shj yg bukan islam. n ajaran islam da cakap larangan meraikan pekara yg menyerupai kaum lain. sbb nanti org lain pon boleh konfius. kamu ni islam ke bukan?? kan ke berdosa tu.. maaf ilmu sy x byk ni je dpt share. plus am d only one who speaks malay here. kalau ckp english takot salah bhase = salah makne = salah org fhm.. hope u dun mind.. sori atas segala kekurangan.

Aqmal said...

tak, tapi ramai orang celebrate harijadi ngan kek harijadi. Tradisi orang orang pagan zaman dahulu.

newreader said...

Ha ha ha...the blame shall be on the cake, rite, OK OK OK...what if a muslim celebrating birthday with cake lapis sarawak on the table? :D

Anonymous said...

zugspitszy-nice work n words.

AQmal
Nak jadi jahil pun kena la bertempat..ye tak??Kalau dah salah tue,salah la...terima jerla dgn hati terbuka

Afiq Deen said...

ignorance for some is enlightenment for others. We have different backgrounds and we perceive things differently. Only bu discussing and exchanging ideas will we learn more about life and in turn, ourselves.

Jahil is when we refuse to learn new things. Aqmal is a stubborn guy who will not tolerate other people's logic and perceive them as prejudice thoughts.

Zug, even though we are all muslims, we can't deny that Islam today is as ignorantly practiced like zaman jahaliah. Today islam is blamed for many atrocities because those people involved manipulate ppls faith to get what they want. Aqmal shares the perspective of people who will usually misconstrue islam. I cant say i blame him entirely for his process of thoughts.

Lodd said...

(From above comment: Darn, accidentally pressed "enter")

Technology isn't religiously linked in any way, so it's all good.

Islam has it's own identity. We should be proud of that identity and be free to show how distinct we are. Let's not let Islam and Muslims blend itself to become just another face in the crowd. Protect that identity and don't practice other people's faiths.

You can say that there's no 'niat' (intent) but that doesn't matter. If you say that you quit Islam jokingly, even without intent, it really does count and at that moment you are kufur and have to repeat the syahadah again.

The act itself is the intent.

And I hope people who might misunderstand some concepts/fatwas in Islam will remember that part at least.

The act itself is the intent.

Lodd said...

Disclaimer: The writing below is based on my limited knowledge as a layman and not an ulama.

Islam forbids us to be similar to any other religion. Instead of ringing a big bell for prayer time (Christian), we have the azan. The bell was considered for a time but Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said no because it was similar to the Christians. We are forbidden to celeberate Christmas. No not at all. Not even to "enhance our ties and create social harmony". It's a religious occasion and therefore, not our religious occasion.

Halloween? I would say haram as well, considering the pagan religious background (that everyone agrees upon, I think).

Birthday cakes? Following that logic, yes, birthday cakes are forbidden as well, I agree with Aqmal.

In fact, I'll go a step further and inform you that some ulama have even ruled that celebrating birthdays themselves are forbidden (haram) in the first place. Other ulamas have said that it's not really a religious-based practice and is therefore alright to practice. Personally, me and my family don't celebrate our own birthdays. I often forget mine in fact.

Technology isn't religiously linked in any way, so it's all good.

Islam has it's own identity. We should be proud of that identity and be free to show how distinct we are. Let's not let Islam and Muslims blend itself to become just another face in the crowd. Protect that identity and don't practice other people's faiths.

You can say that there's no 'niat' (intent) but that doesn't matter. If you say that you quit Islam jokingly, even without intent, it really does count and at that moment you are kufur and have to repeat the syahadah again.

The act itself is the intent.

And I hope people who might misunderstand some concepts/fatwas in Islam will remember that part at least.

The act itself is the intent.

Anonymous said...

i find it rather amusing that we want to celebrate something which is totally foreign and strange . Halloween, it is just a celebration created by human..and furthermore, i don't see the fun side of it.. just tried joining in on the celebration once and i could not even fathom how it can be considered as fun.. anyway, am waiting for cny when i can collect angpow from my mummy and my chinese side of the family!!!hehehe

Anonymous said...

Helpful blog, bookmarked the website with hopes to read more!

holydays said...

The Malay culture as it tried to follow arab is so lacking in fun. Asyik2 kenduri kesyukuran.

Balik kampungla emak nak buat kenduri kesyukuran. Baca yasin doa makan dah. So boring.

Maybe cukup untuk melayu zaman dulu tapi we know that its so boring.. I guess its because the company of ugly tudung clad women add to it.

Unlike wedding at least there are beautifully dress women...cousins etc showing off as they should be.

So halloween is another gimicky holiday and occassions for fun. Just like valentine, where girls feel pressured to find guys..and guys take advantage to make out have sex.

Without valentine, girls have no social pressure or reasons to get close to guys. So its a win win situation.

The Japanese created holidays where women give chocolate to men day. Now this should be followed too...

Osamahalloween said...

Without you realising it those cute young boys in white jubah in the arab schools actually lives a halloween lifestyles haha...

U only to put on Osama topeng to complete it..hehe